Brigham Young Sang in Tongues

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to part two of the Brigham Young Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories podcast. I am Dr. John Dehlin. It is August 26, 2026, and we are here with Dr. John G. Turner, who is the author of a book he's going to hold up. It's a Brigham Young pioneer prophet John Turner. And I did 41 episodes for the Joseph Smith Podcast, and we're back with the Brigham Young Podcast, and we're now on episode two. These episodes are best consumed in sequence. And honestly, the Brigham Young Podcast is probably best experienced after listening to the Joseph Smith Podcast. But my question for you, my starting question for you today, John Turner, is, will there be a John Taylor Podcast?

John Turner 0:50 There will not be a John Taylor Podcast. Not anytime soon, at least. Well, there may be a John Taylor Podcast, but it won't be with John Turner.

John Dehlin 1:00 Okay? And by the way, I'm wearing my BYU hat slightly in the spirit of dark humor today, because, I mean, go Cougars, right? We're talking about Brigham Young, right? I could also be wearing my George Mason hat in honor of you, John Turner. But anyway, really quickly, this podcast exists because of the donors to Mormon Stories Podcast and to the Joseph Smith Podcast.

John Dehlin 1:26 We promised and funded 10 episodes, but we've already realized that we're not even going to be able to get likely to the succession crisis in two episodes. So this is. This series is definitely going to go past 10 episodes. I'm sure there's a lot of Mormon history geeks out there who are thrilled about that. I checked him with John Turner. He's gracious enough to agree to more than 10 episodes, but we want to pay him. So if you want to see us go past 10, we need your donations this time to donorbox.org Brigham Young. And that's going to be where donations to the Brigham Young Podcast will be tracked and processed so that we can make sure John Turner gets paid for all his work.

John Dehlin 2:10 And yeah, last episode, we talked about Brigham Young's early years. We talked about his religiosity prior to joining the Mormon movement, to his wife passing away, to him cautiously studying Mormonism for a couple years before he joins. And then, I believe in 1832, if my memory's right, he comes to Kirtland for the first time after he's been baptized, after he's been a missionary in Canada, he meets Joseph Smith and is called to continue being a missionary. By that point, he either has been remarried or remarries, and he's off being a missionary and serving in the Vineyard. And so we're not going to recap all of part one, but. John Turner, welcome to welcome back to the Brigham Young Podcast. And the floor is now yours.

Brigham Young's Rise as a Loyal Defender

John Turner 3:07 I mean, I'm thrilled to be back. And so, yeah, we are basically meeting Brigham Young this episode in early 1835. And he is rewarded for his loyal service, not just marching to Missouri and back with Joseph Smith, but resolutely defending Joseph and Joseph's reputation upon their return. Because Joseph faces some criticism for the outcome of the march and for his behavior on the march, Brigham backs him to the hilt. That'll be one. One theme this week. This is a guy who is staunchly loyal to the prophet no matter what.

John Turner 4:01 I think another theme that we will see continue this week, and I emphasize it because I think it's not commonly understood about Brigham Young. This is a young man who had a tremendous amount of spiritual fire. Do you mind if I start with an example? John De Lin, Please. Okay. So shortly after Brigham and 11 other men are ordained as apostles, the church. Church leaders then ordain another group of men known as the 70.

John Turner 4:45 And all of these ordinations, they include often really extravagant blessings. So Brigham's own blessing when he was ordained as an apostle was that he would go basically around the world, preaching so powerfully that people would think that he. He was a God and that he would be given the authority to heal the sick, let the blind see, raise the dead, even just extravagant promises. And so then there are more of these blessings given to the 70s.

John Turner 5:27 And Brigham Young, at one point, while this is going on, he stands up and in the spirit of God, sung a song of Zion, Zion in a foreign tongue. So we talked a little bit about speaking in tongues. Brigham Young sang in tongues, which I would really love to hear. I think that's just remarkable. These were understood as prophetic utterances, but I think sort of doubly powerful when sung.

John Turner 6:06 And so I write about this in the biography I write. There was more to Brigham Young than loyalty and gritty perseverance. He also exuded spiritual power. And we're going to talk a lot about the loyalty, a lot about the grit, a lot about other tough aspects of his leadership. But especially in the 1830s, 1840s, this was also a man that sort of just breathes. Breathes spiritual fire that was super compelling to a lot of church members.

John Dehlin 6:50 I love it. So he was a spiritual. He had a spiritual impulse. He was certainly used as a missionary. He was used as a defender of Joseph Smith, or he functioned as a defender of Joseph Smith. And I have it right here in my notes.

John Dehlin 7:07 You know, I. I remember Doris Kearns Goodwin's book about Abraham Lincoln, Team of Rivals, where she talks about Lincoln intentionally choosing cabinet members who would oppose him or disagree with him or who were viewed as his prior enemies because he felt like that would help him govern better.

John Dehlin 7:28 That's one approach. And then there's another approach where you literally only surround yourself with acolytes who will defend you and support anything you say. And tell me if I'm right, that Brigham Young was far more the latter than the former, and that that became a major role of his, not only through Joseph Smith's death, but through the rest of his life.

John Turner 7:53 So that's a great observation. So Brigham Young was not, in my opinion, he was not ever one of Joseph's close advisors. So if Joseph wanted to contemplate the universe, the relationship between God and human beings, the nature of God, I envision Joseph sitting around with people like William Phelps and the Pratt brothers, maybe Oliver Cowdery, people he was intimate with. In that sense, Brigham was a little bit different. Brigham was a loyal defender. He was a foot soldier. By the time we get to the end of Joseph's life, he's someone who's definitely in an inner circle of trust. He's someone that Joseph introduces polygamy to. But I don't think the two men were intimate quite in the same way that Joseph was intimate with some of these other friends.

John Dehlin 9:07 Yeah, but. But in the role of, like, opposing Joseph, being playing devil's advocate, trying to keep him from making mistakes, or even, like, being sort of playing the role of loyal opposition, that wasn't much in his playbook. Right?

John Turner 9:30 That was definitely not in Brigham Young's playbook. And I don't. You know, I think as he got older, Joseph, I think, was less interested in that. So when Joseph forms the council of 50, last couple few months of his life, he specifically says he doesn't want a bunch of yes men. You know, he wants people who will. Who are willing to speak their minds. And, I mean, people will speak their minds about certain things. But I think at that stage of his life, Joseph didn't really want.

John Turner 10:07 He didn't want combative opposition in any sense. And so Brigham Young was someone that Joseph could count on. So, for instance, it's clear pretty quickly that the Kirtland Safety Society is going south, and Brigham is willing to go out and do Joseph's bidding in attempts to save it, namely by purchasing property with Kirtland money.

John Turner 10:40 So Brigham's not. Not Somebody who's going to be there saying, Joseph, this doesn't seem like it's going well. This isn't a good idea. He's just going to, he is out there doing what Joseph tells him needs to be done.

John Dehlin 10:57 And for those who didn't listen to the Joseph Smith podcast series and don't know Mormon history, we're talking about a fake bank that Joseph implemented that that ended up failing and a lot of people lost a lot of money, you

John Turner 11:13 know, And BR later reflects on this. You know, he says Joseph wasn't really good at, you know, day to day business and money and temporal things, but it wasn't my job to criticize God's prophet. You know, like I could see, I could see some of the things that were going wrong. And when other people start up, you know, stand up and start pointing fingers at Joseph and calling him to account. Brigham totally backs Joseph.

John Dehlin 11:44 I mean, this is a really important point because one of the questions I get from my work on Mormon Stories podcast all the time and I get these comments from never Mormons. And I don't mean this is offensive. It's just literally a comment that often comes in, how can Mormons be so stupid? How could anyone have ever believed any of this garbage? Is the type of never Mormon comment that I get weekly on YouTube. You know, and what people just forget is that religious belief is not necessarily correlated with intelligence or iq. And I think Jonathan Haidt and others sometimes say that a certain form of religiosity is positively correlated with IQ and intelligence.

John Dehlin 12:29 And it wouldn't be fair to say Brigham Young was dumb. And it wouldn't even be fair to say that Brigham Young was gullible or wasn't a skeptical person. Tell me if I'm right about this. What probably is true about Brigham Young is in the case of Joseph Smith, he was willing to suspend his skepticism or questioning nature. And he was even willing to subdue his own fierce streak of independence and autonomy because remember, he was against drinking. But I think I remember you writing in this book that he didn't want to sign on to some temperance pledge even though he was against drinking, because he had kind of an independent streak.

John Dehlin 13:19 But it seems like Brigham Young, it wasn't that he wasn't intelligent, it was that he was willing to compartmentalize and or subdue his critical thinking and his independence and his strong personal type A personality in the case of Joseph Smith, because he believed, full stop, that he was a prophet of God.

John Turner 13:43 So those are great observations and questions. So Brigham has a Later comment, when he's looking back on the Kirtland time period, he was called of God, God dictated him. And if he had a mind to leave him, Joseph to himself and let him commit an error, that was no business of mine.

John Turner 14:10 So, you know, some of these realizations about Joseph's shortcomings, they may have emerged in retrospect, but I think, I prefer to think that Brigham was quite aware of Joseph's shortcomings at the time. And it's not so much that he was gullible or totally blind to them, but I think he thought about it this way.

John Turner 14:39 I've gotten powerful things through this church and I don't mean to make this more transactional than it necessarily was, but I've experienced the power of God. I have a clear sense of purpose for my life also. And this was true of quite a few families in the 1830s.

John Turner 15:05 Mormonism kind of brought the young family together. Many of them moved to Kirtland, many of them convert, many of them join the church. It's a bit of a family reunion and reconciliation. So Brigham has all sorts of positive reasons to back Joseph.

Why Brigham Remained Faithful to Joseph Smith

John Turner 15:28 I think for him, the fact that Joseph can make mistakes, it doesn't mean he isn't God's prophet and it doesn't mean the church isn't true, and it doesn't mean the power of God isn't here. Other people of course, see those same mistakes and say and reach different conclusions. Maybe Joseph was God's prophet, but he's fallen and now I need to step away from him. Brigham never goes close to that decision.

John Dehlin 16:09 Okay, so he supports Joseph in the failed bank. He, you know he did. He did. He supported Joseph in the blowback after Zion's camp. Really quickly, as we're, as we're, as we're stepping through scandal, I asked you this before we started. Once Joseph Smith was caught by Oliver Cowdery and others in a dirty, filthy, nasty affair with his live in, domestic help teenager, Fanny Alger. Are you aware of any involvement Brigham had, any awareness that he had of the, the Fanny Alger adultery scandal? Was he aware of it? Do we know what he thought of it? And did he comment on it and did he play the role of defender in that case as well? Because you could say that some, a devoted follower like Brigham Young could have been taken out by an adultery scandal, especially one that had more scrupulous, high moral sort of standards for himself and for others.

Turmoil in Kirtland and the Fanny Alger Affair

John Turner 17:16 So that's a great question. So I write about it a little bit in the Joseph Smith biography. Brigham, by the time you get to the summer of 1837, things are falling apart in Kirtland for two reasons. One, one is the bank.

John Turner 17:35 The other, and I think it's not important for as many people, but it's still important, is Fanny Alger. So for Oliver Cowdery, that is a simmering point of discontent. And Cowdery talks to members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. So some of whom also have doubts about Joseph's leadership.

John Turner 18:04 When, and I think it might have been David Patten, but I don't have it in front of me. When some of those apostles talked to Brigham Young about it, his response is fierce. And I don't think we necessarily have absolutely contemporary sources, but I think maybe from just the last year looking back on it, Brigham I think writes that he. I think he slaps and upbraids one of his fellow leaders.

John Turner 18:36 I should double check my sources. So the fact that other high ranking people are opposing Joseph, I think it is deeply disturbing to Brigham Young when people bring these issues to him. He backs Joseph to the hilt. What we don't know is the specifics of how he's interpreting that scandal.

John Turner 19:00 Does he think nothing happened? Does he accept whatever Joseph's explanation was? I absolutely don't think that Joseph, I don't think Joseph explains it to him as a plural marriage because Brigham certainly interprets learning about plural marriage in Nauvoo as a new revelation from God. So we don't know all the details, but we know that whatever people brought to Brigham, he dismissed and he took issue with Joseph's critics.

John Dehlin 19:45 So if I had to put your feet to the fire to speculate, option A, Brigham Young probably thought Joseph was involved in an affair but didn't care, or B, Brigham Young didn't believe Cowdery that Joseph was in an affair and Joseph denied being in an affair. If I had to hold your feet to the fire, which would you say is more likely?

John Turner 20:08 I'll take option B.

John Dehlin 20:09 Okay. You don't mind speculating in that? In that case. Okay, let's talk quickly about the formation of the quorum of the 12. What year was the quorum of the 12 organized? Was Brigham Young originally part of it? I know the answer is no. And then once he was added, when was he added and how does that become important later in terms of succession?

The Quorum of the Twelve and Early Blessings

John Turner 20:33 So great question. He actually is an original member. He is, yeah.

John Dehlin 20:37 Okay.

John Turner 20:38 He's one of the. Well, I don't know if I'll call it the original 12 because there were previous 12s, couple a couple millennia earlier.

John Dehlin 20:48 Christ,

John Turner 20:50 he's one of the original restored 12. We'll put it like that. So the Quorum is organized in, I think, February of 1835. This fulfills revelations of Joseph about that, I think, from 1831. And most of the original 12 are Zion's camp veterans, I think, I think there's maybe one, maybe two exceptions to that.

John Turner 21:31 Thomas Marsh is the original senior member of the 12, I believe, simply on the basis of his age in 1838 or 1839, when Brigham becomes president of the Quorum of the Twelve, it's because of Thomas Marsh's defection and David Padden's death.

John Turner 22:03 He, at that point was the oldest original member of the 12. And I think he was something like 13 or 14 days older than Heber C. Kimball. And, you know, if those pregnancies had. Pregnancies had ended at slightly different times, we would. We would be having the Heber C. Kimball podcast right now. John Dehlin. I don't know. I don't know what we'd think about that really quickly.

John Dehlin 22:36 Mormons, historically were taught that Thomas Marsh became disaffected because he was mad about how his wife was treated regarding some cows and some milk strippings. And so can you clarify whether Thomas Marsh defected for such trivial grounds or not? And then how Brigham Young felt about Thomas Marsh's disloyalty.

John Turner 23:01 Okay, so now we have to get into some of Brigham Young's earthy and sometimes not exactly comprehensible humor. So a number of years later, Brigham says of the 12 that, you know, we were kind of a cantankerous group, and Thomas Marsh was a big part of the problem. He was. This is a quote, like a toad's hair comb up and down. I don't even know exactly what that means, but

John Dehlin 23:40 it's. It's probably not complimentary.

John Turner 23:42 No, no. And I mean, they had a. They had a cantankerous relationship that stretches into the 1860s, I think when Thomas Marsh eventually returns to the church. I don't know if it's the 1850s, 1860s, he comes back to Utah and Brigham Young welcomes him back with a public dressing down. That is really harsh. So, no, it was not. It had nothing to do with milk. Marsh, along with Orson Hyde at the time, becomes disaffected because of Joseph's leadership of the church in Missouri in 1838, particularly his militancy, his decision to direct offensive military operations against non Mormons in Missouri. That is the reason for Marsh's disaffection

John Dehlin 24:46 and also Not Fanny Algeria?

John Turner 24:48 No, not Fanny Algar.

John Dehlin 24:49 Okay. And did Brigham Young comment on the. As I understand it, when the Kirtland bank failed and Joseph had to flee Kirtland with his dad, like a third of the church and a third generally of the top church leadership, all left the church at that point. My guess is Brigham Young was pretty harsh on all. All those people, right?

John Turner 25:12 That. No, that's correct.

John Dehlin 25:14 Yeah. And even though they had good cause, maybe you could argue because it was the disinfections were not just for the Kirtland bank. Right. Wasn't it a combination of Fanny Alger and the Kirtland bank that led to that big apostasy?

John Turner 25:30 Yes. So Oliver Cowdery, for instance, is excommunicated in April of 1838. He's excommunicated because he's been at odds with Joseph for months and publicly so. And for him, the main issue is absolutely not the bank. It's public statements that he and Joseph make about Fanny Alger, and they make some attempts to reconcile. Joseph accuses Cowdery of lying about him. Cowdery wants an apology, doesn't get it. And at the same time, David and John Whitmer are disaffected and excommunicated. It's not only the bank. And a big reason for that is, I think, like Brigham, especially individuals who were not ruined by the bank, but honestly, even some who took serious losses, like Parley Pratt, most people were willing to reconcile with Joseph if he could sit down with them and talk things through. And I think, you know, the bank was not an insurmountable obstacle, and it certainly wasn't the main one for Cowdery.

John Dehlin 26:58 When. I know we're jumping around a bit on the timeline when. When the quorum of the 12 was formed, you mentioned in your book the Brigham Young received some pretty significant blessings or promises. Do you want to talk about that? I've got them listed here. If I'm putting you on the spot there.

John Turner 27:15 No, no, I'm happy to talk about them. So his blessing. I can't remember if it's Smith or maybe Cowdery. Maybe it's Cowdery who gives the blessing. I can't remember. But Jung's blessing is that he will go forth from land to land, from sea to sea, and shall behold angels going forth. That he will perform really a laundry list of miracles, and that heathen nations shall even call him God himself if he did not rebuke them. You know, he would be so powerful. He would. He would appear like a God to

John Dehlin 28:02 Them And I have in here that some sort of suggestion that he should try to see the face of God. And I wrote Denver Snuffer there in parentheses. So this, I guess what I think about here is that Joseph rewards loyalty. And one way he can reward loyalty is by high level leadership positions and promises of endowments from on high.

John Dehlin 28:30 And these would be big carrots for Brigham Young. And then the only other thing I wonder is, can you tell us whether these prophecies in any way come true or if Brigham just forgets them or if like he does believe, he sees angels and if nations do call him God and if he does believe that he sees God face to face. And so in Brigham's mind, these prophecies end up coming true. I know I'm asking you to give the ending away a little bit, but I'm just curious if these promises are important to Brigham then and later or not.

John Turner 29:05 So I think they are important to Brigham. And so a few things, yes, high level leadership positions and lower level leadership positions, along with blessings and promises of endowments of power. That is very common and I think it's deeply meaningful to quite a few church members.

John Turner 29:33 Many of the blessings are extravagant. This is true of these blessings. It's true of early patriarchal blessings. If you look at those given by Joseph Smith Sr, Many of them pertain to things like you're, you're not going to die before the second coming of Jesus Christ, you're going to sometimes be able to fly, you're going to perform miracles. And these don't all come true in Brigham's case. I think he takes this seriously.

John Turner 30:09 I think, I wonder then how he thinks about it going forward. I don't think we, I don't think we necessarily know. One of the things I narrate is, is that summer, or kind of early that summer, late that spring, Brigham undertakes a few attempts at preaching to Native Americans, including going with his brother in law to preach to the Seneca in western New York.

John Turner 30:47 And you know, they meet many of people they regard as the seed of Joseph, the descendants of the biblical Joseph, and they preached them. And Joseph Smith had promised that this particular mission would open a door to all the house of Joseph, but there wasn't any positive response. So clearly when he goes out on the mission field, everybody doesn't regard him like a God or even like a good preacher. But on the other hand, and this is skipping ahead a little bit, he's part of this incredibly successful mission to England in the early 1840s.

John Turner 31:35 And you know, there's a bountiful harvest of converts. There are people who experience miraculous healing. I don't think anybody's raised from the dead. But I would absolutely wager that Brigham Young thought that this blessing, these prophetic words were fulfilled.

John Dehlin 31:59 Yeah, I, I, I note that from your book that during his missionary work, he leaves behind Marianne, his second wife, and he expresses concern about her love for her, concern about their baby Joseph. He's concerned about them having clothes and food, that they're living in poverty.

John Dehlin 32:28 I guess to me, this speaks to a question of, like, was Brigham just so callous that he would be gone for years at a time, but, you know, lusting after other women as a missionary and not even caring about his wife back home or his kids. Clearly, at least in the early years and maybe always, he did care about his, his, his main wife and his children.

John Dehlin 32:54 But then also, I'm surprised that Joseph's not doing a better job taking care of the families. I guess surprised, not surprised that Joseph isn't doing a better job taking care of the temporal needs of the families of the missionaries he sends abroad.

John Turner 33:09 So, great question. So this is a high sacrifice, high commitment religious movement. That's absolutely the case, I think. Well, first of all, we have quite a few letters from Brigham to Marianne in Brigham's own very rough handwriting. I loved looking at those letters. They're, they're charming.

John Turner 33:38 And one of the things Brigham does on a number of occasions, he complains that she doesn't write him more. So, you know, this first letter that we have, he says, I received with joy and gladness your letter. You know, the first time I ever saw a letter of yours. But when I came to read it, it was so short.

John Turner 34:05 Didn't satis, didn't half satisfy me. And then later on he'll, and I see some, some of Brigham's humor in this. He'll say things like, you know, parley Pratt. He's gotten six or seven letters from his wife. This is the only one I've gotten from you. I want more. I do think he craves news of his family.

John Turner 34:30 I think he does. Like the other apostles and the other missionaries, he does feel guilty leaving them. Not just leaving them alone, but often in really dire financial straits. One of the things that I think is a little bit perhaps hard for us to realize if we're used to the contemporary church, is especially through the early 1840s, you know, church leaders are not wealthy men.

John Turner 35:03 They have very few means. And so when Brigham leaves, he's not earning money to support the family. And we know from other accounts that this is hard on all of the wives of the apostles. I mean, John Taylor's wife Leonora, for a while, has nowhere to live.

John Turner 35:30 And for a while she's with the Young family. And Marianne's pregnant and sick. And Brigham Young, at one point, he's still in Nauvoo, and John Taylor's already departed. And he tells Leonora Taylor that she has to leave their house because Marianne needs the space. I mean, this is. These are often really tough circumstances.

John Dehlin 36:04 The reason why that's important to me and why this whole series is important to me is because faithful Mormons tend to just not know anything about Brigham Young or know very little. And then ex Mormons or critics of the church think Brigham Young's just an evil human right. And I like one of the things. I like what I think a lot of your fans, and you have fans John Turner like, that you're willing to call balls and strikes and be fair. But what I love about a series like this is that it humanizes Brigham Young as we did Joseph, so that we can see him in a more full way.

John Dehlin 36:40 And if you read his quotes, by the time he's a full blown polygamist with dozens of wives in Utah, he's got so many comments where you just feel like he views women as cattle and even detests or loathes them.

John Dehlin 36:55 And I think you can fairly and probably or unfairly, you know, judge him as someone who just hated a misogynist, who hated women, didn't care for women, you know, was mean about women. But this shows that he did have a normal side of loving his wife, caring about his family. So either he changed or he had some type of compartmentalized Persona.

John Dehlin 37:24 And I wouldn't be surprised if the pressures of leadership and then trying to have 40 wives or whatever would change a guy and how he treats his wives later.

John Turner 37:34 Yeah. So I think what I'd say for now is his letters betray or evidence, I think, a pretty clear affection for Marianne and their children.

John Dehlin 37:44 Yeah.

John Turner 37:44 So here's another example. What shall I say to comfort your heart? This is in the summer of 1836. Kiss that little son of ours and tell him to make haste and grow so he can go with me. That's a kind of lovely sentiment. And I do think it's fair to question Joseph asking families to make such intense sacrifices. I think one thing that was meaningful to Brigham is that after he and Joseph both Flee Kirtland, late 1837, early 1838, when Brigham and Joseph reunite in Missouri. Joseph instructs him. And it might have been by revelation. I can't remember that for a season. He should simply take care of his family. So I think I take that as a sign that Joseph perhaps knows that Brigham has sacrificed a lot and needs to take a break and focus on his own affairs.

Joseph Smith's Criticism and Quorum Tensions

John Dehlin 39:08 All right, really quickly, I. I noted that during the Kirtland era, and again, I apologize, we're jumping back and forth. Joseph would get angry at the quorum of the 12 by this time, you know, with which Brigham Young was a member of, as you remind us, Joseph would get mad at the core of the 12 for, you know, not raising enough money, for not sharing the money that they did raise. How did Brigham Young take Joseph's criticisms of the Quorum, which would have then been a. Ultimately a criticism of him. Right.

John Turner 39:41 Yep. I think that was tough for Burgam.

John Dehlin 39:46 So.

John Turner 39:46 So he doesn't reflect at length on it, but we talked about this at some length on the Joseph Smith podcast. Joseph is in a fault finding and grumpy mood in the second half of 1835, and the dynamics with the newly ordained and blessed apostles are really weird. So Joseph has established this new layer of leadership, but I think he's concerned that now these men are going to get big heads and kind of go off on their own. He says, you know, he criticizes them for acting too independently, for being a kind of outlaw.

John Turner 40:41 And he has all sorts of complaints. And these are all men who are very loyal to Joseph Smith. And I do think they, including Brigham, find the criticism aggravating. Brigham, when he looks back, he comments, smith snobbed us. It's an old phrase that basically means to treat with disdain.

John Turner 41:18 And when we proved ourselves willing to be everybody's servant for Christ's sake, then we were worthy of power. And this is sort of reading between the lines. But it's as if Joseph, he's treating with us with contempt to test us to see if we're worthy of exercising power. And I think probably the implication would ultimately be some of us pass that test.

John Dehlin 41:49 Yeah, yeah. You. I made a note that there's a point in your Brigham Young book where you note that Joseph Smith seemed to find fault with almost everyone. He rebuked Rigdon and his scribes. He chastised Emma for leaving a meeting early. He made his own mom cry after bearing her testimony. I don't think your Joseph Smith book maybe emphasized that in my mind or to my memory as much as this little section of your Brigham Young book did. Joseph Smith could be really grouchy and critical and even mean spirited sometimes to his followers. And again, you mentioned in your Brigham Young book that Brigham Young pretty much never supported Joseph's critics, even in Joseph's worst moments.

John Turner 42:37 Yeah, he says, I never opened my mouth when they lammed it onto me. So whether it was Joseph or Thomas Marsh or Sidney Rigdon, I think Brigham said, essentially, I knew my place in the chain of ecclesiastical command, and if my superiors rebuked me and criticized me, I took it.

John Dehlin 43:03 Now you, now, I do note here that you wrote that there was at least one instance where Joseph, where Brigham Young spoke openly against the prophet. I have it right after Joseph and William, his brother, get in a fight and William beats up Joseph, and I have it in my notes that Joseph backed down the one time Brigham Young did speak out against him. Is that, Is that, Is that. Did I get that right?

John Turner 43:25 No, you got that right. So, you know, after months of this, when Joseph actually has finally shown himself to be in more of a reconciliatory mood, the apostles go to, go to Joseph and they basically say, look, you haven't been treating us right. You haven't been showing us enough respect. And I don't have a direct quote from Brigham on this occasion, but he does, he does share the concerns of the apostles. And, you know, I think they've chosen a good moment and maybe Joseph has let it be known that he's open to reconciliation and they, they do reconcile. And Joseph shows the quorum as a group, more place of privilege within the church going forward.

John Dehlin 44:29 And doesn't he specify, doesn't Joseph Smith specify that from now on, the quorum of the 12 answers only to him

John Turner 44:35 and to no one else, only to the First Presidency?

Kirtland Temple Dedication and the Kirtland Bank Crisis

John Dehlin 44:39 Okay, really quickly for the Kirtland Temple dedication and all the charismatic stuff that goes on, the visions, the miracles, and then also with, you know, the anointing with whiskey, you know, the washings and anointing stuff, you know, the visions of God and Jesus, all the charismatic stuff that goes on. To what extent is Brigham a part of that? Inspired by that? I have it that Joseph saw Brigham in a vision. You know, again, lots of speaking in tongues and angels. Was Brigham a part of all the charismatic evangelical stuff that happened in connection with the Kirtland Temple dedication?

John Turner 45:24 Absolutely. So I note in the biography that, you know, Mormonism in Kirtland sort of burns white hot with spirituality during the months surrounding the temple's dedication. And Brigham is definitely among the hottest. So I, you know, we know that he speaks in tongues.

John Turner 45:57 During the temple's dedication, Young and David Padden, one of the other original 12. They sing a song in tongues, then they speak in tongues. Padden interprets Jung's message as he speaks in tongues. We don't know exactly. What he said.

John Turner 46:25 One thing that is maybe not quite as clear, a lot of men report visions, either of the Savior or of angels during these days in the temple. Brigham, 20 years later told Wilford Woodruff that he witnessed a circle of about 40 angels dressed in white robes and caps, perhaps a reference to temple clothing. In the temple's upper story, many personages did appear, clothed in white, and frequently went to the windows and looked at so that the brethren in the street could see them plainly. Brigham doesn't seem to have talked at length about those sorts of experiences, but, yeah, I would say he participated in the Kirtland Pentecost.

John Dehlin 47:28 Yeah. And that was probably really formative experiences that fueled him for the rest of his life, I'm guessing. And then, you know, we talked previously about Brigham Young spending a lot of years as kind of a tradesman or a craftsman. Those skills come in handy in the completion of the construction of the Kirtland Temple, right?

John Turner 47:52 That is correct. I'm trying to. I'm trying to remember exactly what he does. One of the things he's. He's good at is windows, and I think that's one of the things he worked on. I hope I'm not totally misremembering that, but, yeah, that. Those. That sort of craftsmanship that is, you know, that's the source of the family income in the early to mid-1830s. Brigham Young is still a craftsman. It's only really in the Kirtland period that he starts doing things like investing in property in a way that brings him other sources of money. Yeah.

John Dehlin 48:42 And you've already said this, but I wrote that Brigham Young claimed later that Jesus was present at the Kirtland temple. So that's a pretty bold claim and a bold belief.

John Turner 48:53 Yeah. He doesn't say, I saw Jesus Christ or I saw the Savior, but he comments that the Kirtland washings and anointings, maybe the dedication and solemn assembly, were accompanied by the ministration of angels and the presence of the Lord Jesus. And there were a number of individuals who reported their own personal visions of the Savior.

John Dehlin 49:23 Yeah. Okay. So after the Kirtland temple's dedication, you write. I think it's worth mentioning that. I think there was a point where maybe his older brother was more favored by Joseph and then Brigham kind of takes over as the most important Young in Joseph's eyes. But also, you write about the Young family eventually reuniting in Kirtland, and Brigham Young starts to. His family starts to coalesce. Is that worth mentioning?

John Turner 49:51 I think it's worth mentioning partly because I was thinking about this a little bit. You know, religious conversion and deconversion, they're very significant for family dynamics. And one of the things you sometimes read about, whether it's the Shakers or the Mormons or other movements in the 19th century, is if a family member converts to something, it can be a real source of fracture and disunity.

John Turner 50:28 But oftentimes, families did eventually convert sort of en masse. And I think it's common to read that the Book of Mormon and the organization of the Church of Christ brought the Smith family together, which is sort of famous for having been fractured between the mother going to the Presbyterian Church with a few children and the Josephs and a couple other people staying aloof.

John Turner 51:06 Brigham's family, I don't think they were as fractured spiritually, but they also had a lot of fracture. You know, Brigham's father remarried. After Brigham's mother died, people moved around a lot, you know, seeking economic opportunity. By the mid-1830s, a lot of family are coming together. A lot of the Young family is coming together in Kirtland.

John Turner 51:44 Even one detail I think is interesting. Even the parents of Brigham's first wife, Miriam, works. They also joined the church. So did some of her siblings. And Brigham's father, his siblings, they're also in Kirtland. So, you know, I think it's.

John Turner 52:13 We're pretty familiar today with situations in which maybe there's a family and. And a few children have left the church, and that's a source of fracture. In the early years, a few people joining the church could be a source of fracture, but in a way, partly because the church called on converts to gather together sometimes. The early church was a conduit for family reunions of sorts of.

John Dehlin 52:48 Yeah. And so was it was his older brother, Phineas. Is that right?

John Turner 52:54 There was a Phineas Young, who I think also. I think he was also an older brother. But then Joseph. Joseph Young. Oh, is his older brother. Joseph was the brother who first visited Kirtland with Brigham. And I'm being a little speculative here, but I think it's quite conceivable that Joseph Young at first made a more positive impression on Joseph Smith. Brigham's older brother was, I think, a bit more of a polished speaker, especially early on. But over time, you know, Brigham really emerges as the leader of the family.

John Dehlin 53:41 And then you mentioned that John Young was made a patriarch. Is that right?

John Turner 53:46 Correct. So he was ordained as patriarch of his family, so which meant that he could give his family blessings with the authority of revelation.

John Dehlin 54:07 I noted. I know we're going back to the Kirtland bank just a tiny bit, but you mentioned that Brigham Young invested $7 in the bank, so he lost money as well. But you also mentioned that he did everything he could to save the bank, and that. That when the bank fails, creditors come. Come to Kirtland and they even sue Brigham Young. So he. He was not only an investor, but it gave him some heat. But none of that, you know, deterred him from his loyalty.

John Turner 54:35 Correct. So, yeah, $7 for Brigham Young was probably a big investment as of late 1835. I do think that, as I. As I said, Brigham did everything he could to assist Joseph with the bank, including trying to save it while it was taking on a lot of water.

John Turner 55:03 So this is a little bit of a technical point, but one of the ways that the bank's bank could be made less shaky was by distributing its notes sort of farther away from Kirtland. If they were all local, people might bring them to the bank and try to exchange them for silver or gold, and the bank didn't have any of that left after a few weeks.

John Turner 55:39 So one of the things Brigham did was to purchase property with Kirtland Mormon currency. The details of all of this aren't. Aren't fully known, but he travels to New York State and purchased a tavern, most likely with Kirtland money.

John Turner 56:08 I think there are a number of these purchases. Brigham, and I'm critical of him in the biography at this point because I think Brigham is a pretty shrewd guy. He knows this money is, if not currently worthless, about to be worthless.

John Turner 56:30 And, you know, he's purchasing property with it. Now, People obviously have beef with him because of this. There's a. I think he was a church member, a man named Jacob Bump Brigham. He had. He had been someone who I think was a supporter of the bank. But in March, when the bank sort of on its. On life support, Young purchased property from Bump, presumably with Kirtland money. And the two men almost come to blows later that summer.

John Dehlin 57:15 And as a bit of a preview or a precursor to what is to come when the bank does fail and Joseph flees Ohio, you write that some in the movement who defected wanted Sidney Rigdon to take over. And that makes sense because. Because Kirtland was Sidney Rigdon's territory before it was Joseph's territory. But some in the movement wanted Sidney Rigdon to take over and that Young defended Joseph. And that almost becomes a precursor or preview to what happens later in the succession crisis, which I hadn't really connected before.

John Turner 57:56 I had not thought about that either. I mean, I would say, as far as dissenters in the church are concerned, I don't think Rigdon was a super attractive option. He was also very involved with the bank. He, along with Joseph, is convicted of issuing banknotes without a charter. So they're both found guilty of violating the law. They're both fined a lot of money. So they both really need to clear out of town.

John Dehlin 58:30 Yeah. Yep. And Brigham wasn't a fan of, of, of Sidney even being mentioned as, as, As a new leader, right?

John Turner 58:42 No, and it's actually an interesting. That's an interesting point. I haven't thought too much about it. Sidney Rigdon is Joseph's right hand in the very early 1830s, and he continues to have high ranking positions in the Church. He's a member of the First Presidency. But as time moves along, a lot of the time he's, He's a little less central to Joseph's leadership. He does play a significant role in Missouri. I don't recall Brigham generally commenting on Rigdon's aptitude for leadership during these years.

John Dehlin 59:33 Yeah. But Brigham, you do write that Brigham was pretty angry at the members of the quorum of the 12 who defected from the church in response to the Kirtland scandals, right?

John Turner 59:45 Oh, absolutely. I think I write about it more in the Joseph biography. But yeah, Young is resolute there. So there's a meeting in early September in which this is 1837, in which dissenters discuss, well, let's get rid of Joseph. Let's install David Whitmer in his place. Whitmer is one of the Book of Mormon witnesses. You know, he goes back to the beginning and Young is. I mean, he vigorously defends Joseph's authority. I mean, every step of the way during these months. If people take issue with the Prophet, Brigham backs Joseph. There's no wavering.

John Dehlin 1:00:44 And you wrote that Brigham Young testifies of God and Joseph with tongues and hymns. At least that's what I wrote in my notes. He loved tongues, man. Brigham Young loved speaking in tongues and singing in tongues and music and music and dancing.

John Turner 1:01:00 Music and dancing. I mean, he shed all these Methodist inhibitions about, about some of these things. Yeah. He even developed a love of tea. I mean, for goodness sake, Brigham Young open to new things.

Missouri, Family Hardship, and Federal Abandonment

John Dehlin 1:01:18 So in chapter three, you start it by noting that Marianne gets sick, that Joseph Smith tells Brigham Young to chill out and take care of his family. This is when the dissent in Missouri starts to really rise. Oliver Cowdery gets excommunicated. You know, there's, there's concern about Fanny Alger and, you know, all the property that gets sold. There's a lot of excommunications and resentment. And Rigdon gives his famous salt sermon, which was in defense of Joseph, not in disloyalty. And this is when the Danites really start coming onto the scene, which is a group of sort of potential vigilantes who maybe condone violence. You know, what, if any, role did Brigham Young have in all of these, you know, all this sort of Missouri tumult that came about after the Kirtland explosion.

John Turner 1:02:18 Yeah. So good question. The answer, I hope it's not too deflating. I write that Brigham Young played an exceedingly minor role in these developments. They're so pivotal for the history of the church. But it's not as if Brigham is unaware of developments. But, you know, Joseph tells him by revelation not to leave his family until they are amply provided for. And Brigham takes that seriously. You know, he takes care of his family. And one thing that is hard to remember about, I think it's a little hard to remember about these. This stretch of time in Missouri is. It's pretty brief.

John Turner 1:03:09 So Joseph gets to Missouri in, I think, March of 1838. By November of 1838, Joseph is in jail. Everything goes really quickly. You know, there's a, you know, there's. There's sort of this purging of the church of dissenters, some of these new measures to sort of demand and secure loyalty and obedience. There's the building up of settlements. But then very quickly there's this surge in anti Mormon opposition and a rush toward conflict and militancy. And so this, this stretch of time just doesn't last very long. And Brigham is mostly on the sidelines.

John Dehlin 1:04:05 Yeah, okay, that's interesting to know. It's probably important. So as. As apostles start defecting and as, you know, Thomas Marsh and is it Orson Hyde, BAAL from church leadership? You know, Marsh. Thomas Marsh, who we mentioned before with the milk strippings, he signs an affidavit that basically says that predicts that Joseph will become a bloody Muhammad, which is basically telling the Missouri folks that if you don't solve the Joseph problem, there's going to be blood in the streets. And you write that Brigham Young became worried about the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, and that Joseph tries to stem Brigham's worry.

John Turner 1:05:01 So, I mean, some of this is speculation, but Brigham just must have. I mean, how could you not have had grave doubts about the future? I mean, this Quorum of the twelve apostles, all of these men, these loyal men who received these Blessings back in 1835, this is only three years later.

John Dehlin 1:05:28 They probably were all involved in the charismatic Pentecostal events of the Kirtland Temple too, right? Abbey? Brigham was right alongside these men, believing that they're seeing angels and hearing about Jesus visitation. Right? I mean, they were all there.

John Turner 1:05:43 Absolutely, they're there. I mean, at least almost all of them are there. And that's only two years in the past. And by the time you get to October of 1838, the church is on precipice of open, bloody, costly warfare with non Mormons in Missouri.

John Turner 1:06:09 You've had this. Well, you had the collapse of everything in Kirtland, and then you take refuge in Missouri. You have these significant excommunications. Now you have additional defections. You're on the verge of military disaster. I mean, Brigham is definitely a sincere believer.

John Turner 1:06:36 And when Joseph appoints some replacements to the Quorum and instructs the apostles to depart for a mission to the British Isles in a year, I'm sure he takes those promises seriously. But at the same time, these are just. This is two years of disaster and chaos.

John Turner 1:07:03 And we don't know what was going through Brigham Young's mind. But as he's mostly on the sidelines during these events, he has to be extremely concerned and worried.

John Dehlin 1:07:16 You note that, you know, we already talked about Marsh's disaffection and Brigham Young becoming the most senior apostle with David Patton dying. You mentioned that previously. I didn't. You know, Boggs, Governor Boggs. Extermination order on the Mormons happens, and Hans Mill massacre happens, where several Mormons are massacred. You noted that Brigham Young's brother, John Young, actually witnessed the Hans Mill massacre. That's a big deal.

John Turner 1:07:43 A very big deal. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and people are being harassed, people are being robbed. This is, you know, after the surrender, women are raped. You know, dozens of church leaders are arrested. You know, some of Brigham's recollections are remarkable. I mean, he's doing everything he can to avoid being arrested. At one point, he says he disguised himself in an old soldier coat and old hat. At another point, there are marauders going through the country, threatening to shoot any Mormon men. Young claimed to have observed the mobs from his house while conceived with his wife's mantle and bonnet. There's an image of Brigham Young that I don't think anybody has in mind,

John Dehlin 1:08:51 but it does inspire one of his future sons, as I understand it. I'm kidding.

John Turner 1:08:57 So these are, these are perilous, perilous times. And essentially, along with everyone else, you know, Brigham and his family, they. They become refugees. And on the one hand, leadership devolves on Brigham and the 12. He's now the most senior member and therefore president of his quorum. And he does to some extent take charge and help organize the exodus. But mostly it's, you know, it's chaos and, and hardship.

John Dehlin 1:09:46 And I think that's worth noting. Just like we noted last episode that Brigham Young was, was abused as a child by an abusive father, physically and psychologically, not to excuse future misbehavior by Brigham Young. But who among us have witnessed the massacre of our own people? Who of us have been driven out of cities we lived in to become literal refugees with, with young spouses and children like.

John Dehlin 1:10:18 It could, could only be that Brigham Young was in many ways traumatized by what he experienced in Missouri. And that's not even, that's not even counting what later abuse and oppression he experiences in Nauvoo. So as we think about later, his most probably well known bad behavior, which is the Mountain Meadows Massacre sort of behaviors, you know, the behavior surrounding the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I guess we can only really understand that behavior that we might judge in the context of him literally being a survivor and a refugee of the massacre of his own people.

John Turner 1:11:02 I think that's a fair observation. So, yeah, the Young family, they, perhaps they didn't experience the worst Brigham, because he was on the sidelines. He wasn't one of the church leaders that the Missourians particularly wanted to arrest. His family did okay, but Marianne later commented that she kept house in 11 different places over the course of three months. I mean, this is, this is hardship. And there's, there's a quote from Eliza Snow about the Missouri persecutions where she says that they might well allay doubts that these are indeed the last days. Man, this is sort of apocalyptic level of disaster. It doesn't shake Brigham's belief in the church. It doesn't shake his belief in Joseph's leadership. It does leave him like most other church members, it does leave him full of bitterness, not only toward the Missourians, but certainly toward people like Thomas Marshall, people who betray Joseph in the midst of disaster.

John Dehlin 1:12:38 And I wonder if he's going to ultimately feel abandoned by the federal government. And that could feed his future contempt for the federal government as well.

John Turner 1:12:49 He must feel that along, along with Joseph and Sidney, because for years after Missouri, one of Joseph's and the church's prime objectives is to get some sort of justice that they never get.

John Dehlin 1:13:08 This is a bit of a nerdy question, but it's just because it's something I'm always interested in. I'm curious about his theological or doctrinal flexibility, because if they're conceptualizing the Kirtland and the not and the Missouri adversity as signs of the times, and as Missouri was promised to be Zion, the new Jerusalem that would usher in the second coming of Jesus, clearly Brigham Young ends up living till, what, 1860 or

John Turner 1:13:40 70, something like 1877.

John Dehlin 1:13:42 All these prophecies about the second coming of Jesus and the imminence, the whole Latter Day Saint idea, the eminence of Jesus's return. Clearly he has to experience some sort of shift in his understanding of the imminence of Christ's return. Does he ever reflect on sort of that, you know, once believing that Christ was almost here around the corner and he was going to come to Missouri to like, huh, I'm dying and Jesus hasn't come yet. Are you aware of any reflection that he ends up having on that?

John Turner 1:14:16 That's interesting. So,

John Dehlin 1:14:21 yeah.

John Turner 1:14:21 So listeners may or may not know, but there is a voluminous corpus of Brigham Young discourses. You could spend. We could spend the rest of our lives. Not only the ones that were published, but there are more. There's a lot out there. So Brigham Young, over the course of his discourses, reflects on almost everything.

John Turner 1:14:45 This is going to be a long way of me saying, I'm not sure and I should check, but one of the fun things about a Brigham Young sermon is he'll talk about everything under the sun in a single sermon. You know, I grew up in a Protestant context where there's going to be a passage of scripture read and then the. The pastor is probably going to preach on that passage. Brigham Young preaches on. On everything. So I'm not sure, but I will say on that question of the imminent Second coming, while Brigham is serving his mission, leading the mission of the 12 to England, one leader in the British church prophesied that Young Heber C.

John Turner 1:15:31 Kimball and another man wouldn't die until they would see Jesus come in glory. And Young writes a letter in which he says, the blessing caused my hard heart to rejoice in the Lord. So he took that seriously, I think, as the church as sort of the time horizon extends over the decades. I think that the belief in the imminent second coming, it doesn't disappear, but it just gets recalibrated and fades a

John Dehlin 1:16:07 bit, as beliefs are often want to do. So when. When Joseph Smith is, you know, eventually imprisoned, the whole First Presidency's in jail. Brigham Young is told to scatter abroad by a General Clark. I write, tell us what Young's response was to General Clark.

John Turner 1:16:32 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:16:32 So pretty on the spot. I can read the quote if you want.

John Turner 1:16:36 Yeah, I think it's something like. It reminds me a little bit of, you can go to Provo or you can go to Hell, which is. Brigham Young has this great quote when somebody doesn't want to be sent to Provo. He basically says, you've got two choices, Provo or Hell. But I think when Clark says, you know, you all need to become more like other people. That's the basic problem. You Mormons, if you stop being Mormons. Well, I have no trouble. Why don't you just act like the Methodists and, you know, been there. Right. And Young. Young says. I don't know if he actually. He probably didn't actually say this, but he says, you know, I'll see you in hell before I do that.

John Dehlin 1:17:20 Yeah, I think I wrote. He'd rather go to hell than abandon his religion is what. So he's not going to be. This is not going to deter him from his faithfulness. So, yeah, we write the. We already mentioned that because he's 13 days older than Heber C. Kimball. He's the president of the quorum of the 12. And I think it's worth noting that if the entire First Presidency's in jail, who's leading the church? Is that sort of like. Again, is this a precursor to the eventual succession crisis? Because we have an instance where Sidney's a. Well, where's Sidney? And is Brigham Young effectively leading the Church? While. While Joseph and the First Presidency is all in prison?

John Turner 1:18:07 So I would say sort of. So Joseph Hyruman Smith, Signe Rigdon, they're in prison. Signe gets out earlier than the others. There's, you know, Joseph sends a letter, I think, to Brigham and Heber C. Kimball, maybe the rest of the 12, saying, you know, okay, you guys do what you can, basically.

John Turner 1:18:36 And the whole scene is chaotic. The apostles do exercise some leadership in organizing relief for those in need. And they. They do help organize the Exodus in particular. You know, they. They establish a covenant by which the poor won't be abandoned in terms of, like, significant planning and decision making for the church. Even while he's in jail, you know, Joseph is engaged in planning the next steps of purchasing property in what becomes Nauvoo.

John Turner 1:19:25 So it's not a sit. It's not exactly a situation like, say, having a president of the United States who is in a coma, and now the vice president's acting like the president. It's not like that. It's more that the apostles are doing what they can to deal with the logistics of hardship and exodus.

Refugee Life and the British Mission

John Dehlin 1:19:53 So you mentioned that Joseph and his family become refugees. I was stunned. He and his wife Marianne, you write, lived in 11 places in three months. And that's with young children. Right. That's pretty traumatic, it seems.

John Turner 1:20:11 It's tough. They. I think maybe By March of 1839, they manage to make their way across Missouri, cross the Mississippi River. They eventually go to Quincy, Illinois. Sidney Rigdon, he gets out of jail before Joseph does. And so Rigdon is also on the scene. I mean, I think there it. I think it'd be fair to say there's a bit of a leadership vacuum without Joseph. It's such a chaotic and trying time.

John Dehlin 1:20:52 Yeah, I write that. I write from reading your book that, yeah, Brigham Young starts to help organize Illinois in anticipation for the Saints relocating their. In anticipation for Joseph eventually getting. Getting let out of prison. And, you know, I guess Illinois gets designated as the new gathering place, like the new New Jerusalem, the new New Zion.

John Turner 1:21:28 So, yeah, Brigham. Brigham, at first, as a stopgap measure, he wants the Saints to at least gather in small communities and not totally to scatter. But once Joseph's out of jail, very quickly, church members migrate up toward what becomes Nauvoo. At first, they settle on both sides of the Mississippi River. So Iowa and Illinois, over time, what becomes Nauvoo becomes the main. Main place of gathering. And pretty soon there's, you know, there are. There are thousands of church members headed that way. And so it's almost, you know, Nauvoo is the center, but it's kind of a regional settlement.

John Dehlin 1:22:18 And then I write that this represents a shift, and I think a shift from Joseph, from. From spirituality to authority. Less tongues, more obedience. Is that. I wrote that in response to reading your book. Were you saying that was sort of a shift in Joseph or a shift in Brigham or a shift in both?

John Turner 1:22:39 Yeah, no, I would say a shift in Joseph. I'd put it this way. Joseph never seems to have been quite sold on speaking in tongues. So, you know, the very early Mormons in Kirtland, there's a lot of that Ecstatic behavior, sometimes in tandem with sort of wild physical movements. Joseph doesn't particularly like it, and he's not quite sure if speaking in tongues is a legit practice.

John Turner 1:23:15 According to Brigham's recollection, once Brigham is on the scene and Brigham speaks in tongue, Joseph does it as well. Joseph doesn't criticize the practice in the Kirtland Temple or anything like that, but Joseph, I think, does. At the same time, as he orchestrates sort of this Pentecostal outpouring, he also doesn't want spiritual chaos. He cares a lot about order and decorum. And so one of the things he does in the summer of 1839 is he spends a lot of time teaching doctrine to the apostles before they take off for England. And one of the things he teaches is that it's not necessary for tongues to be taught to the church, particularly for any man that has the Holy Ghost can speak of the things of God in his own tongue.

John Turner 1:24:18 And I think the reason for the clarification is that speaking in tongues isn't just a display of spiritual power. It's also understood as a vehicle for prophecy, which somebody else can interpret. And Joseph says part of this is just. It'll be a lot simpler if people teach in English. Everybody can understand it.

John Dehlin 1:24:43 Yeah. So I guess for the remainder of our time today, let's just say we've got another 20 to 25 minutes. Let's talk about Nauvoo, Brigham's role in the development of Nauvoo. And is this where we talk about his serving a mission and some of his early experiences on the mission? And do we even end up having time to get to the Nauvoo? Brigham Young's participation in Nauvoo polygamy. Let's see where. Where we could. What we can do with the next 20 to 25 minutes.

John Turner 1:25:18 All right. I don't know if we can do all of that in 20 to 25 minutes, because especially the polygamy stuff gets a little bit complicated and sticky.

John Dehlin 1:25:28 Okay.

John Turner 1:25:29 But one of the things that. If you're not. If. If you're someone who's not super familiar with the early history of the church or with the life of Brigham Young, we are here for you. One of the things you should know is that the British mission, which was undertaken by most of the 12 apostles and led by Brigham Young, that is critical for the early growth of the church. And it's very significant for. For Brigham Young's leadership.

John Turner 1:26:07 And so the apostles, fulfilling a revelation by Joseph, depart Nauvoo in late 1839. And we've talked about, you know, family hardship. This is a terrible time for these men to leave. A lot of people are sick in Nauvoo. This is basically a malarial swamp. It's been a rough summer. They've just been trying to recover from being kicked out of Missouri.

John Turner 1:26:47 And, you know, we've talked a bit about some of Brigham's missionary labors. You know, going to preach to the Seneca, not successful. Some early preaching missions, you know, 10 converts, which is. You know, that's. That's impressive. The thing about the British mission is it is incredibly, incredibly successful. There are, over the span of a couple of years, there are hundreds and then thousands of converts. Now, this is certainly not primarily Brigham Young's.

John Turner 1:27:37 To Brigham Young's credit, there are probably more effective missionaries among the 12. Wilford Woodruff is super effective. He at one point baptizes 40 preachers who themselves can then bring lots of people into the church. But Brigham Young plunges into this work.

John Turner 1:28:05 He's an effective preacher. They reap a remarkable harvest, and people are converted. They experience these ecstatic gifts. Thousands of these English converts then emigrate to Nauvoo and ultimately to Utah. And because Brigham Young is on the scene, exercising leadership of this mission in 1840, early 1841, these converts see him as a spiritual father. So his successful leadership of the British mission gives him an enormous amount of new credibility within the church.

John Dehlin 1:28:59 And so if he's a super successful missionary, does that mean he was charismatic and a good communicator?

John Turner 1:29:10 That's a great question. I mean, we know from, you know, we have a pretty good sense of his speaking style from his later discourses. We know he could be fiery. We know he could be funny. We know he could be very plain spoken, I think. And I'm sure all of those things were true in this mission. I think what's also true, and this is the same reason why Mormonism spread to the extent that it did in the United States in the early 1830s, is Brigham is also good at spreading spiritual fire. So he presides over miraculous healings. He speaks in tongues. He kind of orchestrates other people speaking in tongues. So he. What I would say is I don't know exactly how good of a preacher he was, but he was full of spiritual fire, and it was contagious.

John Dehlin 1:30:16 Okay, that's good to know. Is there anything about, you know, when I think about Brigham Young and any of the Mormon missionaries in Europe in the early 1840s, my mind goes straight to Polygamy and kind of the, you know, activities that become preparatory or precursors for eventual polygamy, both in them practicing polygamy, but also in them denying polygamy and then them also recruiting women who eventually become polygamous wives. Is there anything else we want to say about his leadership in the European mission and. Or, you know, conversions before we. We talk about whether there's any polygamy, you know, discussions or pre. Activity or activities like polygamous activities or even flirtations or infidelities, any of the polygamy stuff? Is there anything we should talk about before we talk about pre poly. Proto polygamy activity?

Proto-Polygamy and the Martha Brotherton Episode

John Turner 1:31:21 I don't know. Once you bring up proto polygamy activity, how can one go back to anything else?

John Dehlin 1:31:27 I mean, should we just put a proto polygamy activity? Should that be the name on the thumbnail?

John Turner 1:31:32 So, yeah, I mean, I. I just take one more. One more crack at emphasizing this guy's spiritual fire, and then we can talk proto polygamy. There's just one. You know, Brigham Young kept a journal during most of these months.

John Turner 1:31:48 It's kind of rough. It's not. It's not as lengthy as, say, would Wilford Woodruff's journal. But there's this one little instance that I find quite interesting, Actually. I don't know that it's in Jung's journal. Some of it's in one of his letters, and I think it's also in William Clayton's missionary journal.

John Turner 1:32:14 So at one meeting, there was. I forget his first name if I ever knew it. William Clayton recorded that a Brother Green almost got the gift of tongues. And I've often wondered, what does it mean to. Almost. Right, right. Exactly, exactly. Like, I can feel it bubbling up within me, but I just can't get it out. Right.

John Turner 1:32:43 And then as if to illustrate the practice, Brigham Young showed him how to do it. Like he spoke in tongues to demonstrate it. And this is in Manchester. And once sort of the spiritual genie is out of the bottle. Over the weekend, the Manchester Mormons experience the. This gift.

John Turner 1:33:13 And there are instances of people speaking and singing in tongues even as they sleep. And Young wrote a letter to Willard Richards. He says, by Sunday, there was a plenty to rise up in the name of the Lord and speak with other tongues and prophesy in the name of Jesus. So you. You really see Brigham Young leading this sort of Pentecostal Mormon revival. I think it's pretty remarkable.

John Dehlin 1:33:45 All right, now, proto polygamy.

John Turner 1:33:49 Okay, so this is a great subject. So Young and it's Hard to tell it without getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. So the first. When Jung gets back to Nauvoo and Joseph discusses polygamy, plural marriage with him, he first proposes to a young woman named Martha Brotherton, who at the time was 17 years old.

John Turner 1:34:30 She and her parents emigrated from Manchester to Nauvoo, arriving there in 1842. Now, this isn't out of the blue. We know from all of these missionary records that Young knew Brotherton from his time in Manchester. He spent the night at her family's home. On two occasions, he had baptized her sister, who also participated in this Pentecostal revival.

John Turner 1:35:11 Young and some of the other apostles, they had dinner at the Brothertons just before they set sail to return home. In Martha Brotherton's affidavit of Young proposing plural marriage to her, she has Young saying, did you ever see me act in any way wrong in England, Martha?

John Turner 1:35:43 So I find that that's actually quite interesting. I think it shows that if I put all of this together, Young probably was attracted to Martha Brotherton in England, but didn't act on it. And Young, in 1847, he is at a church council meeting and he.

John Turner 1:36:14 And he talks about how the King James, how the Bible condemns lust in addition to adultery, that if you lust after a woman, it is as if you commit adultery. He says that if adultery meant consenting in his heart to do it if he had the chance. I won't say how often I have been guilty of adultery, but I will say I never did the act.

John Turner 1:36:47 And then he says that he and his other apostles resisted what was tempting. He says, we brought girls home after two years mission to England and paid their passage, but did not touch them nor put our arms around them. They married others.

John Turner 1:37:14 So I understand that as Young acknowledging, yeah, I was attracted to women when I was on my mission and I didn't do anything about it. And I even helped some. And we even helped some of these girls, young women emigrate to Nauvoo.

John Turner 1:37:38 Now, did some of the apostles cross the line? William Clayton writes in his Manchester journal. I don't remember quite all of the details, but he has. Well, he writes basically that he had fallen madly in love with Sarah Crooks, and he spends a lot of time with her and I think she washes his feet repeatedly and things like that.

John Turner 1:38:08 And you know, Clayton. Clayton's details are always a little bit on the creepy side, I think Young's comments, I think are interesting. You know, he doesn't. And if, if we were going to move Ahead a little bit. He doesn't.

John Turner 1:38:26 He's. He's fine with sexual attraction being part of polygamy. You know, he acknowledges the reality of him having lust, but he insists that he didn't act on it. And I find Martha Brotherton's inclusion of that quote interesting because she has this affidavit that is, of course, very critical of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith for locking her in a room and trying to get her to become Brigham Young's plural wife. She does not suggest that she had any whiff of this in England.

John Dehlin 1:39:14 Okay. And it's worth noting. I wasn't clear in my mind how much much Brigham Young was in England between 1840 and Joseph's death in 1844, but it looks like it was only for one span, sort of between April and April of 1840-1841. That's what I'm finding. So that was his only span in England during the four Nauvoo years. Is that right?

John Turner 1:39:43 That's right. I don't remember the particular months. I'm sure you're correct. So it was only a year, but it was a pivotal year for the growth of the church.

John Dehlin 1:39:56 Yeah. And so what I think I hear you. Well, just upon reflection, number one, I have great grandparents that. Great grandfathers who served missions abroad with multiple wives and multiple young children and in some cases, pregnant wives at home. And in my family, it was a tremendous sacrifice for them. There were even babies that died in childbirth while a. As I understand it, while a great grandparent was on a mission like so it clearly would have been a huge, tremendous sacrifice on Brigham's part to abandon his. To leave his family behind for a year with young kids.

John Dehlin 1:40:39 But also, what a, you know, you love that which you serve and give yourself in devotion to. So clearly it's going to make him love Joseph and the church more, sacrificing so much for Joseph in the church. So I think that's all worth noting, in addition to noting how important and pivotal it was for the future growth of the church and for Brigham Young sharpening his tool set. What I hear you say is that Brigham Young probably felt sexual feelings for. For people, but there's no indication that he was directly involved in any dalliances or infidelities or any proto polygamy activities. Is that what I heard?

John Turner 1:41:24 That is what you heard.

John Dehlin 1:41:25 Okay. And then. But. But also, it would be natural for these men, if they're away from their spouses for a year at a time, for flirtations to be likely for at least Some of them. Right.

John Turner 1:41:39 Yeah. Well, it. You know, it's. So William Clayton's not an apostle, but he's also there during these years, and, you know, he. He seems to be quite interested in pursuing these flirtations in his mind and, you know, with his, you know, some of his choices of how to spend his time. Brigham Young, I would say he. He acknowledges. He. Retrospectively, he acknowledges that, yeah, there was. There were temptations along those lines, but he doesn't seem to have done anything during his mission to, you know, attract disapproval or raise eyebrows.

John Dehlin 1:42:28 So at least during Brigham Young's time as a missionary in Europe, he wasn't recruiting people to practice polygamy. Back in Nauvoo with Joseph, was he aware that Joseph had started practicing polygamy while he was a missionary in Europe?

John Turner 1:42:44 So that's a great question. So I think the simplest answer is probably not so. When the apostles returned to Nauvoo, Joseph reveals this new doctrine to him. Brigham's recollections are a bit contradictory. On the one hand, he says, wow, this totally shocked me. It's the only time in my life I desired the grave. This was really tough. A lot of the other apostles say things along those lines elsewhere, Brigham recollected. And I have to. I'll have to find the specific quote, perhaps when we talk more in detail about polygamy. He says, God revealed this to me before Joseph did. And I think in a way, most of the time, Brigham wanted to lean into Joseph's authority, you know, particularly when he would introduce things like Adam, God, or blood atonement. But some of the time, I think Brigham also wanted to let it be known that, you know, God also revealed things to him.

John Dehlin 1:44:10 And do you. Two Two part question. Do you believe Brigham Young when he says that he desired the grave when he was. When he was taught the doctrine of polygamy? Because that's something maybe you say afterwards so you don't look like you're a pervert, but you. You. And it could be true for some people, and it could also be true that secretly you think, woohoo, but then publicly you say the more diplomatic thing, that it doesn't make you sound like a creeper. So do you. Do you have a position on whether he really did think and feel that or whether that was just what you say?

John Turner 1:44:49 Yeah. So that's such a. That's such a fun question, and I like the way you phrased it, Chondalyn, because I've thought the same thing, but I haven't. You know, I don't think I phrased it quite as bluntly. So, you know, I think that was. That was fun. So, yeah, so I'm. I'm refreshing my memory on. On one quote. So he says a couple of different things. So he says, I felt as if the grave was better for me.

John Turner 1:45:33 But then he clearly moves from, you know, apprehension to exhilaration. He also recalls that I was filled with the Holy Ghost, that my wife and Brother Kimball's wife would upbraid me for lightness. I could jump up and holler, my blood clear as India rum.

John Turner 1:45:57 So I think I'm going to say both because I think it's true. You know, you have this from a number of the apostles, like, ooh, this is a tough one, Joseph. And I think it's because no matter what they think about taking additional wives, they know this is going to be. This is going to absolutely disrupt the family bonds they already have and cherish.

John Turner 1:46:32 So I think there's a lot of anxiety, for sure. So, William Clayton, we talked about him quite a bit on the Joseph Smith podcast. It's clear when Joseph broaches this with him, he is just excited, and he's like, okay, let's get going. Here's the woman I want. If I can't have her, let's go to number two.

John Turner 1:46:58 You know, I. I am. I'm ready. I'm ready to do this yesterday, I. I think with Brigham Young. Okay, this is a tough one, but I think about it a little bit. Oh, I am kind of excited about this. I very quickly do have somebody in mind, so I'd say it's sort of. Sort of in between

John Dehlin 1:47:24 as a way to kind of wrap up today's episode? I've mentioned this before, but I actually am bringing receipts today. John Turner, do you mind if I share with you my. My. My high school reflections on polygamy as a Mormon boy?

John Turner 1:47:38 I would love it.

Brigham Young's Personal Journals and Key Themes

John Dehlin 1:47:39 All right, so. So in volume one, I've got, like, five journals, and I've transcribed them now and. And OCR'd them so I can search them. So. So there are a couple polygamy passages in my high school journal. The first is I write that I'm hearing, like, a youth conference talk on the Second Coming and predictions about signs of the Times.

John Dehlin 1:48:05 And one of my youth leaders named Brother Terry said that the Bible predicts that there'll be one man to seven women. Right? And I write in my journal, huh, there's going to be a ratio of seven girls to one men. Most men will be killed, which. Which My. I guess. I guess AI suspects that I was contemplating polygamy as the only way that women can be exalted, because you can't be exalted in Mormonism without being married, sealed, to a man.

John Dehlin 1:48:40 So AI has me envisioning polygamy as it relates to prophecies about the second coming and there being seven women every men. And then later in 1986, two years before my mission, I made Education Week right after my grandmother told me that her father and her grandfather were polygamists. And I write in my journal, quote, that they were of the most righteous, thus they were chosen to practice. So my grandmother tells me that her father and grandfather were polygamous because they were the most righteous. And then I write, quote, I know that I'm going to run into some polygamy adversaries.

John Dehlin 1:49:22 So I just looked up scriptures in Genesis dealing with plural marriage. So the wheels are turning. You know, when I'm. When I'm 15 and I'm 16 as a Mormon boy. And then in volume three of my journal, this is the big one that I've referred to before, I actually have a date. This is December 22, 1989. I'm in Puerto Barrios, Guatemala, and on page 252 of my journal, I write top secret at the top of my journal entry, right?

John Dehlin 1:49:55 And I write this ties to Brigham Young being told he's going to practice polygamy and whether he wanted to do it or not, whether he's a willing or an unwilling participant. This is a quote from my journal. I'm on my mission. Okay?

John Dehlin 1:50:09 P.S. i have the feeling that perhaps someday polygamy might be reinstituted to usher in or be part of the second coming of Christ. Now, at this time as a missionary, I was having feelings for a teenage girl in a branch that I was serving in. So I'm sure that played into this revelation that I received to continue.

John Dehlin 1:50:38 Prophecies of quote, one man to seven women, close quote, lead me to believe such a thing, especially seeing the way the growth rate always is in Guatemala. 20 actives in the Relief Society and 5 or 10 actives in the priesthood. So in Guatemala, lots of women would get baptized because they were cute young American male missionaries. Not as many men were getting baptized. Anyway, I wry continue. Well, slap me if I'm wrong and call me Ned Anderson. I have no idea what I meant by that. But let me assure you this. And then this is all in caps in my journal. I'd never do it unless the prophet himself commanded it.

John Dehlin 1:51:23 And my wife Consented, closed caps. And then I go on, there must be an order in all things. The purpose of polygamy is to perpetuate the species with. And then I go back to caps. Good children, close quote.

John Dehlin 1:51:43 Where there exists an excess of females at a shortage of good, capable, willing men. And then I write, see Jacob too. Close quote. So that's my little proto polygamy restoration revelation from my mission in Guatemala. What do you think, John Turner? Is that an okay way to kind of begin to wrap up today's episode, or was that a total inappropriate?

John Turner 1:52:13 Well, first of all, it's fascinating and I often reflect on the fact that you all have a hard time getting away from this doctrine. Right. It does. It does rear itself for a lot of people in different ways. And that's fascinating. I don't think Brigham Young would have engaged in polygamy if he hadn't heard it directly from the prophet either.

John Dehlin 1:52:43 Right? Yeah.

John Turner 1:52:44 Right. So I think that you'd asked, like, you know, how enthusiastic, how hesitant was he? I think the other thing we can say is we know this guy is super loyal to Joseph Smith. He does what he's told. He is one of the first to act on this teaching. And there were others who, when Joseph introduced this, you know, at least, you know, delayed and hesitated. There's not a lot of hesitation for. For Brigham Young.

John Dehlin 1:53:17 The other thing, I'll just add about my journal and the kind of the lived Mormon experience as it relates to more early Mormon polygamy. I've. I've demonstrated in my journal that I did not know up until, I believe my 20s, if not my early 30s, for sure that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. So in my first two decades growing up as a Mormon, even though my grandmother grew up in a polygamous home, I had polygamous great grandparents. My journal substantiates that as far as my Mormon history went, polygamy started with Brigham Young, and I had no knowledge or ever discussion at home or at church or in any of the manuals that I read. There was no discussion and. Or mention or knowledge for at least 20 years plus as my life as a committed Mormon who was a descendant of polygamy, that. That the polygamy began with Joseph Smith.

John Turner 1:54:16 That's fascinating. And I know I've heard similar things before. And it always surprises me that, I mean, I would have guessed you would have known that, but you just wouldn't have known much detail. But it's fascinating you didn't know that Joseph practiced it at all.

John Dehlin 1:54:33 Yeah. All right. John Turner. So let's wrap up today's. I just want to say, on the one hand, I know we're going slower than maybe you and I envisioned. I think we started in your first outline with the succession crisis. So I'm understating, but I think. Don't you agree that understanding Brigham's life by before Joseph's death is a really crucial part of understanding his leadership after Joseph dies?

John Turner 1:55:02 Oh, absolutely. And that's why I've taken so much time to underscore some of these themes like his spiritual fire and his loyalty, because those definitely are essential. And let's not be too hard on ourselves. I mean, our track record for racing along is not very good, but we have gotten through 41ish years of Brigham Young's life in two episodes. I think we're doing a great job.

John Dehlin 1:55:33 I love it. So what do you think we're gonna have time to fit into? By the way, just so people know, I'm keeping these to two below two hours because I just learned that YouTube won't translate your won't provide transcripts in foreign languages to YouTube episodes that are over two hours. And so we're completely cutting off our international audience and non English language speakers when we go over 2 hours on mormon stories. And there's going to be a lot of people that will listen to an episode under two hours who won't listen to an episode over two hours. So I hope our viewers and listeners will understand this decision. But with that, John Turner, tell us what you think we'll have time to cover in two hours next episode.

Preview of the Succession Crisis and Closing Thoughts

John Turner 1:56:18 I think we can do the succession crisis, which is actually about a three, three and a half year period. So I am. I am excited for it. There are a lot of details that people probably don't know.

John Dehlin 1:56:30 So we're going to cover. But we're also going to cover the eruption of massive polygamy in Nauvoo, Brigham Young's involvement in Nauvoo polygamy, and of course, the Nauvoo expositor and the martyrdom of Joseph Smith in the aftermath. We'll have to cover that before we cover the succession crisis, right?

John Turner 1:56:50 That is true, but I think we can get there.

John Dehlin 1:56:52 Okay, cool. All right. So, John Turner, thank you for part two of this series. I'm just so tickled that we get to go on another ride together.

John Turner 1:57:02 It'll be another wild one.

John Dehlin 1:57:04 All right, I'll just remind everyone. Please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com Please comment on YouTube, please like and subscribe this episode, please share it with lots of people. We love your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and thank you. If you've donated to either the Joseph Smith Podcast or if you've donated to the Brigham Young Podcast, we need donors to be able to pay John and Julia and Brooklyn and myself. So please donate. If you want to see us do another 20 or more episodes on Brigham Young and you haven't donated to this series or you want to donate to support it, to see it through, please go to donorbox.org Brigham Young and become a monthly donor or a one time donor to this series so we can make sure everyone gets paid what they deserve.

John Dehlin 1:57:52 Thank you. John Turner hold up the book one more time. Please buy this book. Let's make it a top five along with Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History audiobook which is now selling like hotcakes. It's in the top five. And along with Joseph Smith the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John G. Turner, which is also hopefully selling like hotcakes, at least in part because of our series. Hold up the book. Please buy Brigham Young Pioneer Prophet by John G. Turner. And let's have you and my collective historical works Top three in the top three of the top five selling publications around Mormon history. That wouldn't suck, would it?

John Turner 1:58:36 I. I'd be down with that, absolutely. Let's have him sell like Johnny Cakes

John Dehlin 1:58:42 or Brigham Cakes as it were. All right, thanks John Turner. Thanks everyone for joining us today. Thanks, Julie. Thanks Brooklyn. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Brigham Young Podcast and of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

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